Life is a nice place... but I wouldn&#39;t want to live there.

I've always thought they meant vaguely the same thing... but never bothered to figure out until they bit me in the butt :).

Love your explanation! ;)

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ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com

I never knew AUs had a stigma attached to them till I happened upon a lot of fan discussions on why AUs are evil and that nonsense.

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I think I heard it the first time from you just now :). That simply never occurred to me. I find them great fun.

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Yup. After a second cup of coffee it finally dawned on me that the way I've "defined" AR indeed applies to virtually 99,9% of all fanfic, regardless of setting, timeframe, and relations between characters. However, AU -to me- still is something wonderfully, wildly out there, prone to dabbling with concepts and ideas from all over the place, not "just" HPdom (rich as it is), and "AR" would seem comparatively tame to that. But maybe that distinction exists only in my mind. :)

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I think I had exactly the same definitions, only the other way 'round. Perhaps influenced by Star Trek TOS's Mirror-episode, I always felt that 'alternate realities' are the more different from canon... of course 'alternate universes' are implying quite a huge difference too... Argh!

Funny that the perception of the terms differs but everybody seems to agree that a Slytherin!Ron would be the minor diversion from canon, while gunslinger!Snape/horse-thief!Harry hatesex would be the larger diversion ;).

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There you go! *g* And now we're all equally confused! To me, Slyth!Ron would be AR because it's still got more than a foot in JKR's world, whereas I'd see gunslinger!Snape/horse-thief!Harry hatesex (CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE WRITE THAT? PLEASE!) as AU. Looks I'm in the minority with that. Awww. Whatever! =)

And can I just say your cat's quite a bundle? ♥

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(CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE WRITE THAT? PLEASE!)

Not quite that, but have you ever read

switchknife's wildwest AU (your def.)/AR (my def.) A Town Called Whinging?

The cat *is* quite a bundle. If she'd suffer someone to pick her up and hold her for five minutes (she doesn't!), they'd be in line for a new elbow ;).

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Oh yeah, I know that one!!! =) It made my heart ache for more tumblin' tumbleweed-stories. I'm currently going for Teh Weird, anyway, so a re-write of "Blaze of Glory" starring the entire Pottercast sounds divine *g* Also, I needs me more HP/ff7 crossovers. No matter if AU, AR, or roses by any other name. :)
Funny your cat'd rather tell a mouse to piss off than try and chew on her... ♥

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a re-write of "Blaze of Glory" starring the entire Pottercast sounds divine *g*

I think I'd love you for life - ok, even more so than I already do if that's possible - if you wrote that... 'cause you do the AU/AR so well!

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Die Geister, die ich rief... 8] It does sound tempting, doesn't it?! And just when my next idea for an AU/R was supposed to be a Paul Bowles/Lovecraft/moroccan fairytale crossover set in the 1920's, complete with French Foreign Legion and cities lost in sand ?_? Besides, the Renaissance has me firmly in its glovèd grip. But, but. Maaan, it DOES sound tempting. *feels fuzzy and loved :)*

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masterofmercury.livejournal.com

I think it's interchangeable for most people anyway, but AU is more widely used. I'm not sure how familiar you're with the Stargate, so.

In my understanding, AR is like a kind of spin-off from the canon at some point. Like (generic) you follow the canon up to when Sirius fell behind the veil, but then you make it so that Sirius grasped the veil and didn't let go, so he didn't die. And the story continue on differrently from canon from that point on, because you'll have to make the world suit Sirius' existence as well.

For AU, you can build everything from the ground up. You can make Harry as a vampire slayer living in a cave with his pet dragon and Voldemort as his evil stepfather. You can turn the world around and make the Order of Phoenix as the evil ones, and the Death Eaters as the good force.

I think cross-over fit in AU as well.

Err... does this even make sense?

If I remember correct, there's a poll like this once, but I can't remember who did it or when. It's really enlightening too. Sorry.

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I think cross-over fit in AU as well.

Depends of what kind of x-over it is :) The definitions inside my head are opposite to yours (AU as a spin-off, AR is a completely different reality), but regardless, a x-over might be set in "the other" verse, then it will be AR (in my terms)/AU (in yours). Or it can be totally non-AU/AR at all, like Amanuensis' A Little Touch of Harry in the Night

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masterofmercury.livejournal.com

This is really a splitting hair issue, isn't it? *g*

I think my/that 'AR' definition stuck me since I joined SG-1 fandom, and I have Sam's technobabble about what constitute 'Alternate Reality' stuck in my brain since then. I'm not sure you want me to go into technobabble as well, so. I guess the fandom and science (excuse my lack of appropriate vocab) are not always go along.

Ah yes, sorry about that. I agree that cross-overs are AU. That's a typo.

And now I'm curious, what do you think which cat 'The Pendulum of Choice' fit in?

But thanks so much for the link, I really miss Amy's fic. XD

I do not disagree with you, just so you know. I'm not even sure that there's a right definition at all.

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masterofmercury.livejournal.com

*headdesk* Please stop me from drinking more coffee. It makes my brain melt.

Ah yes, sorry about that. I agree that cross-overs are AU. That's a typo.
I mean, I agree with you that it depends of what kind of x-over it is. From your def, I think most of them are AU(in your def)/AR (in my def). Because I think it's a new ground for a new series of interactions, you know.

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I understood what you meant :)

Yes, probably most of them are AU/AR.

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Heh, I'm not sure there is a right definition at all. I guess there's only what's accepted by the majourity, and even that is relative. Such is fandom :)

Pendulum I put into a separate category inside my head: multiple/parallel reality fic :D

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Makes perfect sense - everybody so far seems to agree on this being the main distinction between the two. Only that people give them different names :).

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ldybastet.livejournal.com

I really think it depends on what one was taught it meant upon entering (a) fandom. For instance, it seems

liriaen and I have opposite definitions of the terms. It's all very confusing. *g*

Perhaps it's about time to start using new terms? With new distinctions, that will be all confused in a few years too? ;-)

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I largely agree with yours, as I found out after having checked the poll results :)

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have opposite definitions of the terms Looks like it, doesn't it? *g* I'll readily accede that your defintions make an equal amount of sense, though =)

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I think I'm in your camp in terms of usage, but the interesting thing is that people seem to agree on the differences, just use different terms to describe them :). Am feeling less stupid over being ignorant now, though ;).

Though I have a quibble with your definition *in* the poll...
I think "warning! seriously ooc" would be a good warning for H/D in High School in Japan ;-)
But that depends... I think taking characters out of their environment and keeping them *true* to their character is what distinguishes a good AU/AR, while OOC-ness violates their character rather than their environment (and that can also happen in bad non-AU/AR fics)... Ok, I might have stopped making sense here halfway through...

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snorkackcatcher

I defined AU and AR off-the-cuff as different degrees of separation from the original canon, with AU more specific than AR. Others would probably define them the other way round. The point being that when people started writing this sort of story, they just applied the labels indiscriminately to anything that varied from the basic canon, and there's not much hope of getting them to all agree on precise definitions now. :)

I think taking characters out of their environment and keeping them *true* to their character is what distinguishes a good AU/AR, while OOC-ness violates their character rather than their environment

Trouble is, the environment is a lot of what shapes their character and actually defines them as characters. A 'H/D in High School in Japan' story isn't really about Harry and Draco, it's about two characters who resemble them thematically but come from a different world in which the assumptions don't always map. Like (say) Joe Macbeth -- an old gangster B-movie in which Joe rises to the top by killing the Boss only to meet his comeuppance -- has many of the same themes as the original Macbeth, but Joe isn't quite the same character because his world and assumptions are different (he's not a noble-born, for example), and some don't map across well (e.g. the witches). If that makes any sense. :)

I must admit, I suppose I do tend to prefer stories that are actually set in the canon Potterverse, or match my own definition of AU (what follows from a specific change).

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Trouble is, the environment is a lot of what shapes their character and actually defines them as characters. A 'H/D in High School in Japan' story isn't really about Harry and Draco, it's about two characters who resemble them thematically but come from a different world in which the assumptions don't always map.

You're totally right. I think what I meant above was that even if it's AU/AR, the character dynamics remain similar, if not identical - even if they adjust to a different background/history. But they keep some characteristics, like behaviour patterns, attitude, way of speaking... I'd expect it to be a touch closer to canon characterisation than Joe Macbeth would need to be - where I'd be happy with a simple intertextual adaption of the themes of Macbeth, but wouldn't necessarily expect the character of Macbeth to be that close to Shakespeares. Am I that make any sense here?

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snorkackcatcher

Yes. I've been thinking about that, and I suppose this whole situation is simply one of those where there are 'fuzzy boundaries' -- the underlying concepts of canon-compliant/AU/AR are distinct, but the exact cutoff point between them isn't. Like the difference between town and country areas, say --- you have a pretty good mental picture of 'town' and 'country', but it all tends to get a bit fuzzy in the suburbs. Likewise, once you start the game of changing Potterverse assumptions while keeping the characterisations similar, there comes a point where they really aren't the same characters, but it isn't easy to say whether the line's been crossed except on a case-by-case basis.

For example, to take some famous stories/series, I find the Paradigm of Uncertainty series to be wildly AU -- technically you could say it was compatible with canon up to PoA, but it just has the feel of a crossover in which Harry and Hermione (and some of the other characters, to an extent) are dumped into a universe with wildly different assumptions to the Potterverse. On the other hand, the long After the End, although GoF-based, feels very much like it takes place in a recognisable version of the Potterverse, even if the actual details are very different. While with the Draco Trilogy -- somewhere in between. It has many AU elements, but to me feels more connected to the book background than PoU is.

Regarding the specific example, I suppose another way you might define 'AU' and 'AR' is that 'AU' makes changes to the Potterverse, while 'AR' plonks versions of the characters into something totally different. So something like your Slytherin Lovers would be AU (Harry is a Slytherin -- and in addition bi -- but most of the rest of the background is assumed to be the same), but the hypothetical(?) Japanese story AR because nothing is the same except the character personalities and certain thematic elements.

Gah. Remind me never to get into literary theory discussions, I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about and am just making this up off the cuff. :)

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snorkackcatcher

Oh, and an addendum on the 'cut' question, which I'd forgotten about -- better to have the whole thing above unless it's very long. The number of options is more important than the number of questions -- one question with 50 ticky boxes should probably go behind a cut, ten yes/no questions can be left above it.

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chthonya

I think taking characters out of their environment and keeping them *true* to their character is what distinguishes a good AU/AR, while OOC-ness violates their character rather than their environment

Whereas for me, the environment is a character, and putting the HP characters in a completely different setting (without good canon-grounded reason) feels weirder than suddenly introducing an exchange student to Harry's year-group.

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Ah, but for me it's *supposed* to feel weird, and the fun thing is the similarities being gradually revealed. The only thing I need to find in an AU/AR are the character traits of the protagonists - i.e. even if their history is somewhat different, Harry should be recognisable as Harry and Draco as Draco even if they're battling corporate overlords in a cyberpunk universe (*points over at

liriaen*). Everything else is fair game for me :).

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chthonya

Yeah, I can theoretically see the appeal of that, though all the other-world fanfics I've seen have been too way-out for me to get into (or perhaps poorly characterised).

Hmmm. I guess I see the characters as being part of and growing from their environment, and so putting them elsewhere doesn't feel like HP fanfic to me, in much the way as crossover fic doesn't feel like HP fanfic so much as a hybrid of HP and something else. AR could be characterised as crossover with an 'original universe', it seems to me.

I wonder if the environment is so important to me partly because I'm British? Part of the appeal of the books to me is that they tap into some archetypes of Britishness, and I miss those aspects when the environment is changed - an original character in the 'canon' environment is much less jarring.

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magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com

I know there’s a difference but I’m not sure how to articulate it.

I know one is when the outcome of a single event changes everything else and the other is where the characters are off in Prohibition America or something. I think the second is an alternate reality where the other is an alternate universe.

I’m not sure though….

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Why, it's a quite clear explanation, and btw, I agree with it :)

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magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com

I was never quite sure which one was which or whether I was just talking out of my arse. Nice to see I was making some sense for a change :D

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It's straight to the point, I think. By now I'm totally confused on what is what, but the difference has become beautifully defined :).

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roedhunt.livejournal.com

I'm so glad you posted this. I've never known where the lines were drawn. Now I'm watching and reading others comments to find out. Thanks!

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*grin*
I guess the difference has become very clear, but the naming is totally different. Fun ;).

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chthonya

I'd never heard 'AR' before seeing your poll, so I can't comment on the difference but I'm looking forward to what everyone else says.

As to polls and cuts, I'm always afraid that lj-cutting means that people are more likely to ignore/not notice the poll. I feel that it's okay to leave them uncut if they don't take up the whole screen, but I feel it's a bit rude if people will be left scrolling down and down and down to get past it on their flist. So I'm closest to 'cut if it's longer than two or three questions', but the more important thing is the length of the poll. If three questions each have 15 options, probably best to lj-cut imo.

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OK, AR is one of the choices over at the-archive, and I've always wondered what exactly differentiated it from AU :).

Yup, you exactly hit on my poll problem. If it's uncut, it's annoying to readers, if it's cut, nobody will notice. And as always, your solution is the best of all options ;).

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chthonya

The other option would be to post two polls - one before the cut and one after. Then at least some tempting ticky boxes will show! I'm not sure if it's possible to put two polls in one post, though.

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sor-bet.livejournal.com

I was going to post some definitions of my own, but then I took a look at other people's.....hm. Now I'm not sure.

I think of AR as the regular characters with their regular relationships, but something happens in the story to take them to another place.

rushlight75's "The Pendulum of Choice" would be my perfect example of AR. Canon is all still there as backstory, but they're in a different place/time.

AU -- for me, this has more definitions. As other people have said, if you ignore bits of canon, it's AU. If it's in a different setting, if people have different relationships (Harry Weasley meets Ron Potter on the Hogwarts Express), it's AU. If Remus is a monk in the 11th century, it's AU. If Sirius is brought back through the veil, it's regular fanfic; if he never went through the veil to begin with, it's AU. Or maybe I'm splitting hairs.....

The difference between the two? Maybe how much canon you keep. I just read liriaen's comment:

To me, Slyth!Ron would be AR because it's still got more than a foot in JKR's world, whereas I'd see gunslinger!Snape/horse-thief!Harry hatesex (CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE WRITE THAT? PLEASE!) as AU.

and that makes a lot of sense.

And here I thought that my Snupin Santa request of Old West AU with Snape as a gunslinger was original......*scuffs toe and pouts, but goes off to read your rec*

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