Here's something I've just spotted - your last question. If the critical number of betas is five (yes, I know it's unlikely) then two of your options are valid. 'More than four' and 'five or more'. This could skew your results.
If anyone chooses those options, of course! I don't imagine they will.
Of course if the fact that I've posted the bloody poll *twice* had not already skewed results to no end... I really have no clue how *that* happened! *grrr*
It's pretty simple to me: writers are the ones who write the stories. A story can only benefit from a good beta and so I generally try to use a beta, but a beta can't make a bad story any better. She may fix up shitty grammar/spelling/sentence structure/canon details, but there's more to a story than the words it's written in. Those come from the writer, not the beta.
Although I think that a beta can make a bad story better - or at least point in the direction... I fondly remember a handful of 'rewrite *that* and *that* because it sucks/makes no sense' comments that were really spot-on. Ok, make that a beta can make a mediocre story better. If it's bad to the core, there's probably not much hope (I beta read for a certain site a while back, and there were a handful of stories where 'scrap and write something else' was the only honest response...
I'm really interested to see the results of this, because I don't use a beta and never have. I don't feel my fics suffer from this, I'm confident enough in my own ability to spell check and edit, and more importantly I realise both these things need doing. But it never occurred to me that seeing a fic which listed no beta might actually put someone off reading it. I tend to avoid fics with loads of betas listed. I don't want to read something written by committee, I want to read something that's individual and original. The back button is still there if the grammar is atrocious!
I don't think using a beta-reader is necessary at all for someone who's language-savvy and confident (granted, I'm neither and tend to ask for several second opinions if I'm insecure). And it's usually pretty quickly evident if the writing is bad, so beta-or-not doesn't influence me at all beyond being neutrally aware of it.
Though it never occurred to me that several betas would make something look like being a collective work either - although that may depend on the individual case...
Although I register whether or not an author uses/references a beta, I read the first paragraph or so in order to decide whether or not to read a fic. In truth, some authors are terrific without betas, while others with betas have fics filled with grammatical mistakes and terrible plotlines/characterizations. That's what I've seen, anyway.
Yes - I *register* betas (especially if a name rings a bell, which might make me a teensy bit more inclined to read, perhaps), but usually looking at the first few paragraphs is the most reliable way of deciding about a fic's quality, imho...
Not really. Some really good writers have multiple betas; I don't consider it a flaw.
In general, I get turned off a fic if the header doesn't seem - professional is not quite the right word, but it's close. Basically, I avoid gushy first-time cluelessness. If the writer mentions that the fic was beta'd by her sister or best friend, or doesn't know the word beta, or makes an big issue of explaining why it's unbeta'd but we should read it anyway, that kind of thing may help me decide not to read, even if it doesn't have the final say.
*nods* But I was way curious whether it might be considered as a flaw... I *notice* (and will probably even think 'hey, they have insecurity issues - like me'), but it doesn't influence my reading-or-not. Author's notes like you mention them can influence me a lot more!
Though admittedly best friend is my cruellest critic :).
With the last question, it really depends on the length of the fic. If it's, say, 1000 words and it has 5 betas, I'll think the author is extremely paranoid. However, a novel/novella length fic, I feel, can benefit from a wide variety of opinions (speaking from experience here). :)
As with all the fics I read (or not), it's all about the header as a whole, whether I know the author (in some cases), and if I'm in the mood to actually read fic. *g*
As with all the fics I read (or not), it's all about the header as a whole, whether I know the author (in some cases), and if I'm in the mood to actually read fic. *nods in perfect agreement*
I can pretty well sympathise with paranoid, but for a novel-length fic, multiple betas admittedly make more sense :).
Basically, I know that regardless of whether a fic is beta-read or not, there's still a chance that it's going to have grammar and punctuation mistakes, or characterizations I disagree with.
I do know some authors on my flist whom I trust to be of a high quality, and so I really don't look at who beta'd for them or not on a given story, and with new authors I feel a story is almost as likely to need fixing up even if it has a beta listed because betas can be newbies too!
Yes - beta readers or not don't guarantee quality, although if someone I know as a good writer/beta read a fic, I might be a tad more inclined to read it just for the name recognition value.
I have the hardest time figuring out who's a new author, though - just because I've never heard somebody's name doesn't mean they might not have been around for a long time :). The only reliable way to decide on whether or not to read I think is to look at the first two or three paragraps of a fic...
I have the hardest time figuring out who's a new author, though - just because I've never heard somebody's name doesn't mean they might not have been around for a long time :). The only reliable way to decide on whether or not to read I think is to look at the first two or three paragraps of a fic...
So true! I guess I mean authors who are new to me, not new to the fandom. ;)
*grin* Especially when it comes to SpaG and stuff! Not taking up suggestions is a valid thing, of course, but there's mild suggestions, and serious suggestions...
If I know the author, I don't care about betas, but if it's someone I don't know and looks sketchy, I almost always won't. I know that can hurt me in return since I don't always use betas, but, well, you have to narrow things down somehow.
I get nervous if there's too many betas, though - quantity does not equal quality - or if the betas are people I know can't spell/write/etc. That's a detriment to me, because it implies there won't be much of what I consider beta work done.
Mmh - if something about the header looks sketchy, I'll most likely back out carefully too, unless it's a single accidental typo that might happen to everyone :). I might lift a mental eyebrow on very many betas (though not too high, I'm guilty of it myself), because to me it shows that the writer is either insecure about their work in general or this particular fic (or unable to say no to volunteers...).
or if the betas are people I know can't spell/write/etc. Oh yes! *That* might scare me off too unless it's my top fave rarepair or something :).
I couldn't answer the last question, because less than two betas makes me wonder about the author. One beta is good, two betas is better. Betas miss things, and focus on different things. One beta's strength may be grammar and structure, while another's is character and universe. And the longer the fic, the more betas you need.
It doesn't much matter to me whether or not a writer uses a beta. If, however, I start reading and find that the writer really should have used a beta, I'll hit the back key and not bother with that writer again.
Heh. I've used as many as five betas on a fic. It depends on how secure I'm feeling and how many people volunteer. Sometimes it's nice to have input from multiple sources.
I notice whether an author mentions betas and I admit if I see three or more ... I won't say I worry, but it is in the back of my mind as I start the fic. However, in my experience, the number - or even presence - of betas has zero correlation to whether the fic displays good spelling and grammar. Zero. For that matter, it has no correlation to whether the fic is inherently a good story. So I don't let the number of betas, or the lack of them, affect whether I'll give a fic a try.
Yes, me neither - I notice, but it doesn't influence my clicking on the fic.
However, in my experience, the number - or even presence - of betas has zero correlation to whether the fic displays good spelling and grammar. Zero. That's also true, at least most of the time - I find myself a little bit more inclined to try a fic if an author/beta I trust has beta-read it, but that's only a little added incentive :).
For 1, I probably don't notice if the author doesn't mention a beta, but if the author specifically says there's no beta (even if it's not "omg lolz this sux no beta" but "i was in a hurry, so let me know if you catch errors), I'm more likely to skip it.
Five or more betas doesn't make me question the writing, but it does make me think the author might be really anal retentive. Not that I'm not.
*snickers and makes mental note to skip the 'sorry, no beta' mention in the future* Nah, just kidding - I prefer to mention it just so nobody will start on fic that's not properly edited. Not that I'm not either! But I also mentally note 'oops, they're at least as insecure as me' when I see a lot of betas ;).
I think I find that the most intriguing result of all - that some people will see 'many betas' and get wary, while others see 'too few betas' and get wary about *that* :). I love the diversity of fandom :). And I've had quite a few betas for tricky fics before myself.
Yes, me too - ok, no beta won't stop me from starting to read something that looks intriguing, but seeing a familiar or household name under 'betas' makes me a teensy bit more inclined to give it a try.
I always use a beta and I always credit them in the headers on my own LJ. However, when I post a link to my story in a community, I skip the beta info because I consider it not relevant (just like, for example, A/N that the story is a birthday present, etc.)
Similarly, if a header (to a link posted in a community) doesn't mention a beta, I don't automatically assume that the story is not beta'ed.
The only time when the beta info might influence my reading or not reading a story, is when the author specifically says that the story is not beta'ed and gives some childish excuse ("I wrote it at 3am and couldn't wait with posting, LOLOL" or something to that tune.)
I think that's reasonable - especially since, when you post a link in a comm to your fic, the credits/information will still be there to see once somebody follows the link. I'm never sure whether it's proper etiquette to post fic to a comm or just a link, so I usually try to be safe and post the fic, and the whole header :).
The only time when the beta info might influence my reading or not reading a story, is when the author specifically says that the story is not beta'ed and gives some childish excuse *grin* Much with you on the childish excuses/extensive wibbling about why no beta thing :). I usually mention if a fic is unbetaed (to avoid pain on the reader's side as I'm not a native speaker), but I try to have one or more for every substantial piece.
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branchandroot
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Date: 2006-10-13 08:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-13 08:19 pm (UTC)Good point about how that may make a difference - thanks!
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Date: 2006-10-13 08:40 pm (UTC)If anyone chooses those options, of course! I don't imagine they will.
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Date: 2006-10-13 08:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-14 06:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-13 08:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-14 07:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-13 10:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-14 07:37 pm (UTC)Though it never occurred to me that several betas would make something look like being a collective work either - although that may depend on the individual case...
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Date: 2006-10-13 10:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-14 07:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-13 10:45 pm (UTC)In general, I get turned off a fic if the header doesn't seem - professional is not quite the right word, but it's close. Basically, I avoid gushy first-time cluelessness. If the writer mentions that the fic was beta'd by her sister or best friend, or doesn't know the word beta, or makes an big issue of explaining why it's unbeta'd but we should read it anyway, that kind of thing may help me decide not to read, even if it doesn't have the final say.
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Date: 2006-10-14 07:47 pm (UTC)But I was way curious whether it might be considered as a flaw... I *notice* (and will probably even think 'hey, they have insecurity issues - like me'), but it doesn't influence my reading-or-not. Author's notes like you mention them can influence me a lot more!
Though admittedly best friend is my cruellest critic :).
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Date: 2006-10-13 11:54 pm (UTC)As with all the fics I read (or not), it's all about the header as a whole, whether I know the author (in some cases), and if I'm in the mood to actually read fic. *g*
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Date: 2006-10-14 08:00 pm (UTC)*nods in perfect agreement*
I can pretty well sympathise with paranoid, but for a novel-length fic, multiple betas admittedly make more sense :).
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Date: 2006-10-14 05:45 am (UTC)I do know some authors on my flist whom I trust to be of a high quality, and so I really don't look at who beta'd for them or not on a given story, and with new authors I feel a story is almost as likely to need fixing up even if it has a beta listed because betas can be newbies too!
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Date: 2006-10-14 08:05 pm (UTC)I have the hardest time figuring out who's a new author, though - just because I've never heard somebody's name doesn't mean they might not have been around for a long time :). The only reliable way to decide on whether or not to read I think is to look at the first two or three paragraps of a fic...
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Date: 2006-10-14 09:04 pm (UTC)So true! I guess I mean authors who are new to me, not new to the fandom. ;)
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Date: 2006-10-14 12:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-14 07:25 pm (UTC)Especially when it comes to SpaG and stuff! Not taking up suggestions is a valid thing, of course, but there's mild suggestions, and serious suggestions...
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Date: 2006-10-14 10:20 pm (UTC)I get nervous if there's too many betas, though - quantity does not equal quality - or if the betas are people I know can't spell/write/etc. That's a detriment to me, because it implies there won't be much of what I consider beta work done.
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Date: 2006-10-16 07:09 pm (UTC)or if the betas are people I know can't spell/write/etc.
Oh yes! *That* might scare me off too unless it's my top fave rarepair or something :).
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Date: 2006-10-14 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-14 10:46 pm (UTC)Heh. I've used as many as five betas on a fic. It depends on how secure I'm feeling and how many people volunteer. Sometimes it's nice to have input from multiple sources.
Here via the DS
Date: 2006-10-14 11:29 pm (UTC)Re: Here via the DS
Date: 2006-10-16 06:48 pm (UTC)However, in my experience, the number - or even presence - of betas has zero correlation to whether the fic displays good spelling and grammar. Zero.
That's also true, at least most of the time - I find myself a little bit more inclined to try a fic if an author/beta I trust has beta-read it, but that's only a little added incentive :).
Re: Here via the DS
Date: 2006-10-16 07:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-15 12:01 am (UTC)Five or more betas doesn't make me question the writing, but it does make me think the author might be really anal retentive. Not that I'm not.
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Date: 2006-10-16 06:32 pm (UTC)Nah, just kidding - I prefer to mention it just so nobody will start on fic that's not properly edited.
Not that I'm not either! But I also mentally note 'oops, they're at least as insecure as me' when I see a lot of betas ;).
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Date: 2006-10-15 04:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-16 06:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-15 12:17 pm (UTC)If the author is unknown to me, but I know one of the betas I often use the beta's "profile" as one deciding factors.
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Date: 2006-10-16 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-15 01:20 pm (UTC)Similarly, if a header (to a link posted in a community) doesn't mention a beta, I don't automatically assume that the story is not beta'ed.
The only time when the beta info might influence my reading or not reading a story, is when the author specifically says that the story is not beta'ed and gives some childish excuse ("I wrote it at 3am and couldn't wait with posting, LOLOL" or something to that tune.)
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Date: 2006-10-16 06:19 pm (UTC)The only time when the beta info might influence my reading or not reading a story, is when the author specifically says that the story is not beta'ed and gives some childish excuse
*grin*
Much with you on the childish excuses/extensive wibbling about why no beta thing :). I usually mention if a fic is unbetaed (to avoid pain on the reader's side as I'm not a native speaker), but I try to have one or more for every substantial piece.