Fandom and the Mob: a Rant

[kennahijja]

As much as I'm often proud of fandom – its collective creativity, courage and subversiveness – there are a few things about it I dislike. There's extreme shipping, which fills me with scared amusement and confusion; there's writers deleting their stories for other but serious RL reasons, which pains me almost as much as the random destruction of historical artefacts. Those are minor wibbles. There is, however, one thing that above all else that just plain disgusts me – and that is the rabid mob mentality fandom can exhibit from time to time.

I'm talking of the attack dog mentality that stampedes braying after a leading opinion, hurling insults and mindless approval without pausing to spare an individual thought or a shred of consideration that the 'other side' might have feelings, or reasons, or might on some level be acting in good faith. Perhaps there's something liberating about feeling in the right and being edged on by a crowd of others feeling the same way; maybe that provides the sort of anonymity that allows one to behave like an utter arse which one wouldn't get away with in any other situation. I don't know. I only know that it's perfectly disgusting to watch.

I'm by no means saying that there can't be disagreement, or strong disagreement, or even sharp arguments worth falling out over. But if there are no arguments, not the flimsiest attempt of questioning one's own point of view rationally before starting to scream, and not the tiniest bit of respect for other people and opinions – nothing but a virtual mob, yelling – then it's truly fandom at its very lowest.

I'm only talking about mob mentality here, not about right or wrong. This rant has been brought on, of course, by recent events, but I've been in fandom for a few years now and have seen it happen again and again. Sometimes over an opinion I agreed with, sometimes over one I disagreed with. Truth be told, it sickens me even more if I happen to agree with the side the mob is on, because it makes me want to be able to change my mind, or yell the old "get off of my side, you're making me look bad (and feel sick!)." But then I've always believed that it's preferable to lose well than win badly.

It just makes no difference whether you (or I) think the cause is a bad one or the most worthy of all or anything in between: if in order to make your point, you have to incite, or pander to, or rely on the mob (or, if you happen to stir it up by accident and fail to try and slap it down again), you've already damaged even the very best of causes beyond salvaging. Yeah, it means you can be right and still be made of fail.

Most of the time, fandom is a great place to be, but at times like this, it sickens me. I honestly wish we could be better people, a better community than that, but sometimes, it seems we can't. And that's a bloody shame!

Won't make a habit of ranting for sure, but this has been festering inside me for a very long time.

ETA: Apologies if I'm owing any of you replies still, but I won't be getting around to it. It's time for War, not Wank.

Comments

[oddnari.livejournal.com]

Whatyou ask for, my dear, is impossible. Unfortunately.

It's easy to fly off, not as easy to stop, think, rephrase and then go.

Fandom won't change... doesn't seem like it anyway :(

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

I know :(. It felt good to vent, though. And I like impossible causes ;).

[fleshdress.livejournal.com]

Word. Mob mentality is one of the scariest sides of humanity.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Yep. It scares me even more in Real Life, but there's still something sickening about encountering it in my 'safe place' :(.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

You know, this is one of the best commentaries to have come out of recent events. Regardless of who is right or wrong, and what one's opinion is and how one's opinion is formed, the very vehement hatred and disgust that people seem to be displaying lately is something I find quite revolting. Thank you for talking about this.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Maybe it's naive to expect fandomers to be a touch more 'enlightened' than others (at least sometimes they seem, about a handful of things), but it still hurts to see them behave as bad as everybody else.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

This isn't a fandom thing. It's human nature.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

I know. I still can't help but flip out over it when it happens in fandom. So much for 'us' being more enlightened (in some small ways, that is...).

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, yes. I feel what you are saying so much.

Sadly, I've seen this happen in most online communities, not just fandom. It boggles my mind and shows a really disturbing side of human nature.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know - it's by no means just fandom. But fandom is the place I tend to obsess with/recreate, so it just infuriates me when it rears its ugly head there :(.

[ariadneelda.livejournal.com]

Yes. Thank you. I couldn't agree more.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

It's still sad :(.

[karaontai.livejournal.com]

I am not sure what event brought this on exactly -- lol . I can imagine though, but you make very good points. It seems easier to get into a mob mentality on line than in real life -- for once "we" don't have to face each other. Most of us don't personally know each other, and we all hide behind a screen name and an actual screen. I doubt that some of the things "we" (as in all of us)say on line, we would actually repeat to the persons face if given a chance. It it sooo much easier being mean/hurtful in cyberspace than in real time. Not to mention safer.
And yes, it is human nature to fall into a "mob mentality". I hate mobs, they are uncontrollable and way to easily guided into violent behavior (may that be on line or in life)-- is that a contradicting statement or what??? Maybe I need to re-word that... lol ;-P

[dbassassin.livejournal.com]

Most of us don't personally know each other, and we all hide behind a screen name and an actual screen. I doubt that some of the things "we" (as in all of us)say on line, we would actually repeat to the persons face if given a chance.

I agree; lj has a very strange mixture of anonymity and pseudo-intimacy to it. We communicate through the medium (sometimes for years) with "friends" and I think this causes people to drop their guard and express things in ways that they ordinarily wouldn't.

And when influential people in the broader "community" lead the charge on one side or another, other people follow and a mob is born. It's almost like the rabble-rousers are getting better organised with each new wanksplosion. It's all getting a bit boring and off-putting, IMO.

[the_con_cept.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this. I've been feeling very uncomfortable about recent events and couldn't quite put my finger on it (apart from the obvious stuff). I was thinking yesterday, "What if I was close friends with the person who said this?" and "What if I was close friends with the person who responded that way?" I think it's a good exercise to humanize the person at the other end of the tube, and a good way to foster discussion and keep from being too hurtful. But then again, what do I know? Some people may be awful to their friends. The whole thing has been pretty depressing in any case.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Yes, well, I've seen friends make statements that raised my hair once or twice (not in this, though), and unless it's *really* unacceptable for me, I tend to let it go. Yeah, there are people who really turn out to be awful, but in general, surprisingly many aren't. Or maybe I handle disagreements well (though it has happened, yes...).

[chthonya]

... And once again, a fandom storm sails unnoticed over my head. I'm not sure whether to be alarmed at being so out of it, or relieved that my flist is relatively mob-mentality free. I tend towards the latter. (Though if we end up living in the city I may be asking you to fill me in on the gossip over coffee...

Speaking of which, I just asked my letting agent to serve notice on my tenants. It still hasn't sunk in - it feels almost crazy to take that on when I'll have no income and precious little savings. And to go back... to what? But then taking these steps always feels bloody scary - at least it shows there's life in it.

(I've been trying to reply to your e-mail but hotmail won't let me open any emails for some reason.)

[chthonya]

)

(oops)

[painless-j.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Makes me glad that I've had no energy for anything but lurking and posting an occasional rec recently. When I have more time, I follow things more and get thoroughly misanthropic.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Bring on the recs, love! What better antidote to misanthropy :).

[rastaban43.livejournal.com]

Fans can be especially ridiculous sometimes. I'm glad you have a clear head about it. My own personal problem was ... while I was reading Deathly Hallows, I was on pins and needles every time Harry and Draco looked at each other or if Draco was mentioned, I kept hoping he wouldn't die. LOL, I had a way of resurrecting Harry for a naughty future tale, but Draco? Bwahaha, and the two girls reading the book with me suffered every minute of the way. You should have heard me when Draco grabbed hold of Harry on the back of the broomstick. It was maniacal. Anyway, hope my madness cheered you up. I would never say anything against anyone's fantasies.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Yep, I too held my breath every time Draco turned up, hoping for the best - I could have handled a heroic death for Harry, but Draco... not so much. So glad he lived! (and Lucius!).

[snorkackcatcher]

Are we talking the kerfuffle relating to a certain HP comm here? I was uneasy with that, but preferred to mostly stay out of it.

I've always believed that it's preferable to lose well than win badly

Welllll ... sometimes. :)

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Well, kind of. The kerfuffle is what brought it on, though I've been fuming about the sort of mentality a long time before.

Nah - always ;).

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. The mob mentality mode of fandom (or in real life too, of course, because it's certainly not exclusive to fandom) is scary, and there really isn't anything to justify it, because it's always mindless, unthinking and blows thing out of proportion. I think it's worse when "the mob" is on my side, too, because if it's the other side, it's easier to just dismiss them, but if it's on yours it's not that simple.

In short nothing to add, other than yeah, WORD.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

It's definitely scarier in RL, but I hate it in fandom too. And oh yes, if on my side, it's worse!

[archon-mentha.livejournal.com]

This is the best, most brilliant thing I've heard in days.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

*blushes and hugs*

I try ;).

[narcissa-malfoy.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying this. I couldn't agree more, to be honest.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Thanks :).

[bellonablack.livejournal.com]

I think humans are primarily social creatures.

Everyone wants to be accepted, even the most independent minded of us, deep down. I try to fight it myself, with awareness, because awareness is a great way to fight things, and your post is great.

I did have opinions on this event (*if it is what you are referring to??), and I did express it on someone's journal. That's about the extent of it, and I don't think that was wrong. But constant attacks, obsessing over something, is wrong.

-BB

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, me too - expressed it on somebody else's journal, that is, being unable to shut up completely, but not wanting to add to wank. Expressing opinions is perfectly fine and desirable, but I found a lot of what was going on in random comments and on f_w really awful.

[oddnari.livejournal.com]

Also, check out alittlewhisper's commentary. Good deconstruction by cool use of logic, I thought :)

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Definitely interesting and valid, although I think the 'fallacy of tolerance for intolerance' can only ever mean that everybody sitting behind the walls of their own little castle of ideologies and issues and will be quoting that on everybody else, or am I seeing this wrong? I mean there *is* no way of defining either tolerance or intolerance in that context *without* resorting to the subjective? And she lost me badly on the dehumanisation of kink business... all I ever took that to mean was prompt/term that I like writing about and *then* writing the characters/persons with it... Because that's what 'fandom porn' is, compared to commercial and visual porn, right? Even in 'kink comms', we play with characters first and foremost, they do kinks with exchangable non-personalities. But if the key weren't the characters, we'd not be in fandom, or am I misreading things?

[envinyatar15.livejournal.com]

WORD.

... Thank you for saying this. I thought about writing a post along the lines of this one, but I don't think I could have put into better words!

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Thanks :). I'm glad it's not just me.

[viverra-libro.livejournal.com]

*hugs* It's really upsetting. *hugs*

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

*hugs back*
Not just for me, alas...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I think I intend to play Devil's advocate. (Perhaps because I am awake at two in the morning with a dry throat and a creeping temperature!) I think you start from the assumption that opinions are harmless and should be allowed to exist in peace. The majority of mankind, however, take the view that some opinions (for instance, the opinion that certain opinions should by right be silenced because, I quote, "they make me feel demeaned") can be not only bad, not even factually wrong, but downright dangerous. People treat opinions as they would grenades; and they are right - opinions kill more people. Certainly nobody should be allowed to say that things that "make her feel demeaned" should be outlawed without feeling the strongest possible protest. What is more, there is a certain Darwinian value to these defensive reactions. If you are not willing to take a little grief for your views, then you are not serious about them; and if you are not serious about them - especially if they are the kind of thing that enrages other people - then you should not be playing with them. Opinions are serious things.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Yes and no. Agreed unquestioningly on the seriousness and dangerousness of opinions. although I don't think they can be parted from the people who hold them' in discussion. But if we approach said discussion with a few safeguards in place - being aware we're dealing with human beings who deserve respect, considering that they have their reasons/are acting in good faith, trying to see the issue from their angle - I think we're less likely to fly off the handle, or misread/misinterpret carelessly (or purposefully). Sure, we may still end up thinking they're totally wrong and perfect arses to boot, but chances are much greater we can actually trade opinions and come to a respectful disagreement. Or not, but we'll have at least tried and not jumped into the mudslinging from the start.

Though yes - there *is* the point when my core convictions are touched and my hair starts to rise and compromise just is out of the question. You know, the 'I'm right, you're wrong, no question' thing. That's the point where on the net, I have to walk away and where in RL I'm uncomfortably aware that I'm capable of violence. *Very* rare, but...

On the other hand, if *I* feel that way about some things, I can't deny that others can feel the same way, about other things where I go all 'you're so wrong/stupid/making a fuss over nothing'. Though I realise it's damn hard to say 'look, you should have a right to say that, if you truly believe it, even if it violates everything I hold dear, and I'm not going to scream and try to sic the mob on you'. It works on the net, where opinions are still one step removed from actions, but not in RL. I'm not that perfect :).

But ohyes, the 'you can't say that because it offends me' crowd! That's my very favourite intellectual suicide argument! :(

[rfachir.livejournal.com]

If it makes you feel better, I think of you as one of the shining lights of Fandom. You're a traffic light for mob movement - enough people know and respect your opinions that you do have an effect on the mob mentality. Not that you can do it alone - no one can - but there were anti-Iraq-invasion protesters from the beginning over here. They don't get much comfort for being right, but I suspect they sleep better for trying. And I sleep better knowing I can look outside myself when I turn myself into a zombie, and listen to someone's considered opinion until I snap out of it.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Dunno, I just know I'm way too fault-riddled and partial and stubborn to serve as anyone's shining light ;). But I've certainly never heard an irrational word from *you*! Though yeah - if it's good for sleeping better, it's good for something ;).

*blushes and hugs*

[jaelle-n-gilla.livejournal.com]

But then I've always believed that it's preferable to lose well than win badly.

If that aint a propper email signature... ;-)
I remember Terry Pratchett said someting like "The intelligence of a mob is the IQ of its dumbest member devided by the amount of people". There's truth in that. All the points you said are valid. I would add one more though: take into account that the average age of those around you in fandom is somewhere in the twenties.
I started on the 'net somewhere in the 90s and I was somewhere in my twens as well. With apssing time I find it increasingly easier to *not* reply immediately to a post or email with a snide and smart-ass comment but let it rest for a day or two and then forget about it, even if I have a strong opionion on the subject itself.
The younger people are, the more the worls seems to be made of black and white.
It also helps to remember with a smirk that those who comment in a wank more than once a day are probably poor little creatures with very few real friends. Joining a mob is like quoting Luna: "It almost felt like having friends."
Of course she's rather the opposite of a mob person, but everybody copes in their own way, don't they?

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Heh, yes, it'd make a nice sig :).

Granted, I also started with the net sometime in my (mid)-20s, and can look back on a handful of spectacular humiliating-in-retrospect instances of me jumping the gun which, though, helped immensely in (trying to) not make a total arse of myself in the future. Which, admittedly, doesn't quite stop me from having and 'sharing' strong opinions, if less so in purely fandom matters (if I have strong opinions, I'd rather pick my fights in the real world where it's, well, *real*).

Though black-and-white thinking isn't really the sphere of youth, I think (even if you might get more objective with age). But I've seen adults (even post-twen adults) behave worse than the silliest pre-teen gits (and teenagers behaving in extremely mature ways) way too often to think that's true. Pity, but...

[annephoenix.livejournal.com]

I know what you're saying. Events such as the recent simply make me want to scream SHUT UP because clearly rational arguments don't have any place in fandom wank. That would be too ... reasonable.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Yes, you'd know from painful experience... Still, it infuriates me every time it happens :(.

[pushdragon.livejournal.com]

Is this the post you spoke of that you started drafting during the OMG!plagiarism wank? If only you'd posted it then, so the current posters could see that your opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with the current issue.

Naturally, I agree a thousand percent. During aforesaid OMG!plagiarism wank, woman_ironing coined the exhortation "To the mill! To the mill!" and regardless of the subject, the perpetrators of the wank (and often both sides!) do bring to mind angry labourers with pitchforks.

How about this rather cruel theory. People who make a lot of their human interaction on the internet are more likely to be the passive-aggressive, timid type, who in RL wouldn't dare express a confrontational opinion to someone's face. What better release than to come online and do it, with the protection of anonymity and the rest of the mob.

I think the test of when an argument becomes a mob riot is when you suspect the participants are starting to *enjoy* the feelings of mass grievance and self-righteousness.

All of which is a comment on past wanks, not the current, which I know nothing about. I am trying *so hard* to learn to ignore them!

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

In fact, it started prickling at the back of my neck with the Harmonian wanks (where both sides boggled my mind, honestly, although one more than the other), the Blaise Zabini wank (where I agreed with the point), and again with the Cassie-Claire plagiarism thing (where I also agreed). The last time I got really furious was during the harry_holidays business (where I did not agree)... and quite a few times in between.

And I rather agree on your test case scenario. Maybe it's just me, but I'm almost happy I tend to *always* see both sides and attribute good faith to the other side in an argument - although I'm not totally immune to the urge to defend people I know/love/respect, so that'll keep me from thinking I'm always right in the first place :).

Well, that goes for online disputes where rationality is really not *that* hard to maintain if you try... There are a very few RL issues (fascist agitation, for example) where I can blow up to the point of physical violence, but thankfully that's rare, and I'm not at all proud of it. Umyes - TMI, evidently ;).

[ellecain.livejournal.com]

How is 'mob mentality' different from 'peer pressure' or what the newspapers term 'the overwhelming force of public opinion'? All three refer to the same things, the difference is that each term comes loaded with a certain amount of respect and a positive or negative spin on it.


Because I don't know if I agree with you here - using the negative term 'mob mentality' just seems to reduce the issue to a simple black and white: People who Follow The Herd are Always Wrong. If it's a mob - all it's members are st00pid and crazy - no one is actually making up their own minds but are being led by the nose! It just seems like a way of dismissing the other side: just like pushdragon above - People who make a lot of their human interaction on the internet are more likely to be the passive-aggressive, timid type, who in RL wouldn't dare express a confrontational opinion to someone's face or jaelle_n_gilla - The younger people are, the more the worls seems to be made of black and white.. Both of these statements are simply not true, furthermore they're just ways of not dealing with the issue at hand. Same goes for 'mob mentality'. And well, if you're talking about the wank du jour it seems like there are two mobs - right now, both sides have members exhibiting shameful behaviour.

[pushdragon.livejournal.com]

Please don't try to use my words as rebuttal to kennahijja's arguments. I speak only for myself, provocatively, and without her careful tact and diplomacy.

To accuse one or both sides of a wank of mob mentality is not to say they don't have valid and coherent arguments. In fact, the tragedy of mob mentality is that it often obscures valid arguments beneath layers of vindictiveness, cruelty and sheer hate so that it becomes impossible to reach the truths at its heart. The genuine posters who might otherwise be persuasive get buried beneath the ugliness.

There is a point, I think, in which public opinion becomes mob mentality. Some indications that the point has been passed include:

* Posts that attack the poster rather than the argument
* Involvement of f_w
* Posts which deliberately mis-understand the opposing argument, reading slurs into innocent words in order to find grounds for offence
* Name-calling
* A sense that the posters are beginning to enjoy the feeling of mass outrage and offence
* A degree of violent anger well out of proportion to the original offence
* And the classic indicator: posts which exhibit the above symptoms where the poster hasn't actually read much of the evidence beyond one or two inflammatory secondary posts.

It's the hate without reason that sickens. The original arguments may well be persuasive and intelligent. It's the posts that come after that my comments had in mind. The posters who feel safe making nasty, ill-informed, personal comments not only to the original offender but to anyone who defends them because they know they can't be blamed because other people had said it first. The ones who stayed silent until they had mob support. It's part of human nature that people lower themselves to appalling behaviour in a mob that they wouldn't countenance if they bore sole responsibility. I didn't think it was controversial to suggest that the same behaviour might apply online.

And I suppose I should reiterate that this isn't a specific observation on the current wank, but on past issues. I haven't read the current because of exactly these reasons.

I hope that clarifies my objection; I'll let kennahijja clarify hers.