kennahijja | Fandom and the Mob: a Rant

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Fandom and the Mob: a Rant

As much as I'm often proud of fandom – its collective creativity, courage and subversiveness – there are a few things about it I dislike. There's extreme shipping, which fills me with scared amusement and confusion; there's writers deleting their stories for other but serious RL reasons, which pains me almost as much as the random destruction of historical artefacts. Those are minor wibbles. There is, however, one thing that above all else that just plain disgusts me – and that is the rabid mob mentality fandom can exhibit from time to time.

I'm talking of the attack dog mentality that stampedes braying after a leading opinion, hurling insults and mindless approval without pausing to spare an individual thought or a shred of consideration that the 'other side' might have feelings, or reasons, or might on some level be acting in good faith. Perhaps there's something liberating about feeling in the right and being edged on by a crowd of others feeling the same way; maybe that provides the sort of anonymity that allows one to behave like an utter arse which one wouldn't get away with in any other situation. I don't know. I only know that it's perfectly disgusting to watch.

I'm by no means saying that there can't be disagreement, or strong disagreement, or even sharp arguments worth falling out over. But if there are no arguments, not the flimsiest attempt of questioning one's own point of view rationally before starting to scream, and not the tiniest bit of respect for other people and opinions – nothing but a virtual mob, yelling – then it's truly fandom at its very lowest.

I'm only talking about mob mentality here, not about right or wrong. This rant has been brought on, of course, by recent events, but I've been in fandom for a few years now and have seen it happen again and again. Sometimes over an opinion I agreed with, sometimes over one I disagreed with. Truth be told, it sickens me even more if I happen to agree with the side the mob is on, because it makes me want to be able to change my mind, or yell the old "get off of my side, you're making me look bad (and feel sick!)." But then I've always believed that it's preferable to lose well than win badly.

It just makes no difference whether you (or I) think the cause is a bad one or the most worthy of all or anything in between: if in order to make your point, you have to incite, or pander to, or rely on the mob (or, if you happen to stir it up by accident and fail to try and slap it down again), you've already damaged even the very best of causes beyond salvaging. Yeah, it means you can be right and still be made of fail.

Most of the time, fandom is a great place to be, but at times like this, it sickens me. I honestly wish we could be better people, a better community than that, but sometimes, it seems we can't. And that's a bloody shame!

Won't make a habit of ranting for sure, but this has been festering inside me for a very long time.

ETA: Apologies if I'm owing any of you replies still, but I won't be getting around to it. It's time for War, not Wank.

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Kind of how fan of color feel when encountering racism in their safe space?

When thinking about mob mentality, do try to think about the fact that the majority of fandom is white and all the many ways they exercise their white privilege and ignore or silence the concerns of people of color. That's also a form of mob mentality, but it doesn't get identified as such because it represents the interests of the majority.

When people of color speak out, however, then it becomes a "mob."

I also find your comments to be in bad faith given that you already spoke out on Furiosity's LJ supporting the mods' initial decision.

Ditto! Thanks for saying that spare_change.
All of you out there defending the people who started insulting us in the first place, I don't know about you but when people start calling my parents "deviant", I react. Does that make me irrational? We are so sorry to have bothered you with our hurt and pain. How inconsiderate of us to think you would give a damn.

Nobody called your parents "deviant." Nobody insulted you. You read into it what you wanted to see so you could wave your PC flag around.

Plus, I didn't see

kennahijja defending the DD mods at all in this post. She didn't even mention them.

Your response, which entirely ignores the actual content of the original post, actually proves the point the OP was making.

I hate PC. I'm old enough to know when I am being insulted and you must admit it's kinda strange how so many of us felt the same way. But I guess your mind is made up and we had no grounds for concern. I should keep my mouth shut when interracial sex is called deviant and when the word 'Miscegenation' (KKK copyrighted) is used because you know what's best for me and WHEN I should feel insulted.

Please, everyone knows what this post refers to, it's clear as day. Again if by defending my rights to a minimum of respect, I'm part of a mob, then so be it. And it's sad to say that YOU are proving your own point because if I am a gang of one then what are you?

A mouse? Tsk...

I'm tempted to agree, although to be fair, I *did* participate in the wank du jour at least on the sidelines, and considering that

lakadyn sounds quite distraught and caught up in the heat of things, it might not be quite so easy for them to look at what it looks like from the outside.

Although the problem is that with a bit more rationality and empathy and awareness of shades of grey from the outset, things would never get this heated and ugly :(.

I think whatever you can say about the comm in question, there was not a shred of intent to insult *anyone* until it turned into wank.

And I'm very sorry, I neither know your parents, nor have I called anyone *deviant* lately, or insulted/hurt anyone (I hope). I try to avoid that, in general.

That's exactly the thing I tried to point out with my post - the ugliness of insults, mindlessness and mud-slinging that accompanies fandom wanks.

When you (not YOU personnally, it's a manner of speaking) use a racist word in a comm and refuse to acknowledge your mistake for days, you can't be surprised to have wanks.

I know the mods main fault was ignorance and not racism. But I refuse to take the blame for reacting. If we had not, this racist slur would have stayed there. We should all be glad to be part of fandoms where we acknowledge racism is a problem. It SHOULD make people react and it is not be treated with indifference. And if it takes a wank to make people understand how serious it is, so be it.

When you (not YOU personnally, it's a manner of speaking)

Yeah, I understand you, but that's already the first step to everybody losing their cool and starting to misread and misinterpret and go to war needlessly. I find it easier to walk up to an opponent assuming a) she's got a point and her reasons, b) she's a human being and I'll treat her like one, and c) she's acting in good faith (contrary to what HP would tell us, we're not usually out there to be evil, like Voldie). Yes, they may still turn out to be irredeemable arses in the long run, but at least I haven't set out to misrepresent and vilify them. It helps me not to lose my cool.

If anyone behaves fairly, there's no blame - disagreement is totally fine. I'm not saying everybody on the 'other side' was a rabid mob-ling - there were excellent and convincing points made against the use of the term, and I don't doubt the sincerity of those who bothered to make them. It's the ugliness of the wank that bothered me - not just here, it's just the most recent example.

My personal take on it - and you have *every* right in the world to disagree with that if you see it differently - is both of proportion and of example. Example, because I'm still extremely thin-skinned about *any* attempt at outside interference in non-mainstream comms after Strikethrough. As such, I want a firm stand of 'don't let *anyone* dictate to *anyone* what to write/what prompts to use' - because we've seen where it can lead. And well, proportion. This thing started over a word that was chosen without negative intent, which led to perfectly harmless fic/art (in the context of the comm, that is), was not recognised as racist by many, and whose racist connotations would (that's my personal opinion) fit the HP-universe with it's strong focus on race and prejudice very well. Yes, I can really *see* why people who've encountered it in a RL context might be upset about it, but I don't think that the extremity of the wankstorm wasn't appropriate to the offense.

Yes, you probably think differently, especially if you come to it with different experience. I respect that - a lot. My basic point is that we can have different opinions and *still* treat each other like human beings instead of constructing the other into a evil monster. At least I hope we can?

Of course we can, none of us are evil. Unfortunately our differences are irreconciliable and I think that's when a divorce is in order.
I can agree to disagree on every topic but this one. And yep, it's pretty personal.

Ironically I was also involved in Strikethrough and we fought side by side on that wank war. See you in the tranchees for that fight.

Yes, there *are* the too-personal-to compromise things (and no one should, really!).

Ironically I was also involved in Strikethrough and we fought side by side on that wank war. See you in the tranchees for that fight.
Yeah, I probably will - it seems kind of unavoidable, doesn't it?

... I wish you weren't so prophetic :(.

I find it easier to walk up to an opponent assuming a) she's got a point and her reasons, b) she's a human being and I'll treat her like one, and c) she's acting in good faith (contrary to what HP would tell us, we're not usually out there to be evil, like Voldie).

That's exactly what

witchqueen did, btw.

Yes, I did speak out in favour, and I still hold to it, if for reasons coming from an entirely different direction to the 'debate' as such. I did make a sincere and (hopefully) rational argument. I'm not saying that the 'other side' is wrong - they have their reasons, and strong ones at that. I may not agree with the extent of their argument, and certainly disagree with the *methods* that some of them (and not those who decided to *argue* reasonably and politely) employed.

But before you accuse me of bad faith, perhaps re-read the following part:
I'm only talking about mob mentality here, not about right or wrong. This rant has been brought on, of course, by recent events, but I've been in fandom for a few years now and have seen it happen again and again. Sometimes over an opinion I agreed with, sometimes over one I disagreed with. Truth be told, it sickens me even more if I happen to agree with the side the mob is on, because it makes me want to be able to change my mind, or yell the old "get off of my side, you're making me look bad (and feel sick!)."

It's behaviour, not topic, that bothers me, and if you want more context of what brought this on, I pointed things out here. I'm not immune to the impulse to defend friends (I'd be a liar to claim the opposite), but I try *very* hard to second-guess my motives. I think you can accuse me of many things from intellectual fallacies to failing to make concise points, but I'm trying damn hard to *always* argue in good faith.

"The other side." So you are saying that people of color are wrong to be offended by a fic community that equates sex with them to sex with animals? Or, because you're "coming from an entirely different direction," you don't think that's as important as the mods of Daily Deviant being able to do whatever they want without censure?

What I'm saying is, I did read your objections, and I found them, well, objectionable. Extremely so.

The worst behavior I have seen, by far, has not been from the people protesting the Daily Deviant, but those who defend it. Please go look at that post again if you don't believe me.

I was very serious when I said that racism makes fandom an unsafe space for a lot of people who are just as much a part of fandom as you are. And I think that this focus on behavior rather than content is a way of deflecting the real issues at stake and allowing people such as yourself who support the mods to feel as if they still have moral high ground.

And, again, I find that to be in bad faith. The fact that you apparently originally wrote this post vis-a-vis the Cassie Claire plagiarism scandal is particularly ironic, given that Cassie and her friends used the power of "mob mentality" for years to scream down anyone who pointed out the obvious fact of her plagiarism. There is ample evidence of this all over the web, and I certainly witnessed it myself more than once.

Anyway, you might want to read this (http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/300145.html?format=light), which addresses your issues about "behavior," tone, and "mob mentality" better than I probably can. I'll just add that when somebody equates me to an animal, and then gets snotty and defensive when this is pointed out to them, I tend to lose patience really quickly. Why is it my job to kind and gentle and patient with people in order to educate them NOT TO INSULT AND DEGRADE ME? In order to convince them that I deserve the SAME RESPECT as anyone else?

Try to think about the unfairness of your position from that standpoint. Again, when was the last time someone complained about white "mob mentality" against people of color? They don't because this is just the status quo.

As far as the impact of this post and the statements you made elsewhere, you might want to take a look at this post by Nardasarmy (http://nardasarmy.livejournal.com/709572.html), because she is by far not the only person who feels this way.

a fic community that equates sex with them to sex with animals

Is there a still-publicly-accessible post anywhere that actually quotes the definition they used verbatim? (I couldn't find one when I went looking this morning -- they seem to have been flocked or deleted.) Because although I've seen this 'sex with animals' point mentioned a number of times, the mods seemed to be arguing that they were equating it to sex with nonhuman sentients, not animals (the former being an established part of the Potterverse). If it actually mentions sex with animals specifically, then fair enough, they deserve the flak they're getting about it. If not, then this particular charge would seem to be based on a misunderstanding.

Have you taken the time to look at the community? Did you see that the "miscegnation" tag covered Neville/Parvati and Luna/Dean and Percy/Anthony Goldstein (??!!), but also Crouch/house-elf and Aberforth/goat?

In any event, if you don't understand why a person of color doesn't appreciate being put in the same category as a "non-human sentient," I don't really know what to tell you. They are an established part of the Potterverse, sure. But putting them and people of color in one category, and white people in the other ... come on. :(

In any event, if you don't understand why a person of color doesn't appreciate being put in the same category as a "non-human sentient," I don't really know what to tell you. They are an established part of the Potterverse, sure. But putting them and people of color in one category, and white people in the other ... come on. :(

(Actually, after I posted I followed a few more links and came across the text at

flamewarrior's journal, together with more discussion that helped -- so no need to go Googling.)

Anyway, having taken a look at that discussion and thought about it a bit, yes I can see your point and why it's offensive, so my apologies there. Clearly my brain (and possibly the mods too) has been so warped by fantasy and scifi where 'alien races' are basically treated as humans with blue skin or funny ears, and the characters form relationships ad lib, that I'd overlooked the obvious fact that the characters aren't human even if the actors are!

I suppose the comm definition actually lumped together two usages of the word 'race' -- the real life one, and the speculative ('sentient nonhuman') one -- as if the synonym alone made it sensible to apply 'miscegenation' to either. Which is admittedly ridiculous. I'd guess the mods' definition mapped to 'sex with exotic people' -- which I hasten to add is still an idea one can take issue with, but not as bad as equating it to sex with animals?

Have you taken the time to look at the community? Did you see that the "miscegnation" tag covered Neville/Parvati and Luna/Dean and Percy/Anthony Goldstein (??!!), but also Crouch/house-elf and Aberforth/goat?

I didn't look at the postings, actually, as kinkfic isn't the sort of stuff I generally like. I do remember looking at the Neville/Parvati piece when it was linked from one of the daily comms before this kicked off, and thinking something along the lines of "wtf? Miscegenation is a kink that needs to be warned for? ... meh, Americans". Put me down in the fairly large category of people who thought, before this, that it was just a technical term that the Deep Southerners used because they objected to the concept, not that it was something they coined specifically in order to object to it -- and were therefore hesitant (I think reasonably so) to say it should be changed without getting more information on how people other than zvi reacted to it. I can only think of a couple of times I've actually encountered the word other than the above, once in a human/alien context, once in a Kid Creole song.

As for Aberforth/goat (it was Harry/goat, apparently, according to the discussion I saw?), that's clearly ludicrous and suggests that the poster didn't get it. I still think criticising the mods for equating it to bestiality generates unhelpful confusion, though, because they clearly didn't mean that -- at least not in the fantasy context. If you wanted to criticise them for letting the poster tag the piece that way, fair enough, although I gather that tag's now been removed from it.

I do criticize the mods and not only the poster, because they were the ones who said that "miscegnation" means sex between races or species. And they did not ask the poster of the goat fic (or the house-elf fic) to change their tags.

My problem is not so much with the word itself. It's with any kind of logic that equates goat-fucking with romantic Dean/Luna.

I doubt that logic was involved in the process at any stage ...

On the whole, I'm not prepared to assume that anyone involved in the comm actually made that equation -- simply because it's so extreme it's hard to believe an intelligent person could ever formulate it in those terms. I think I prefer to assume that it's a case of some people misunderstanding the concepts and others just not paying attention, unless there's a smoking gun somewhere.

Man. :( I don't know what to say. What I typed in my last comment to you was a direct quote from the community. miscegenation: sex or marriage between two people (or magical creatures) of different races. I don't know why you are dismissing that as a "misunderstanding."

Look, I understand wanting to think the best of people and give them the benefit of doubt. I do. But the thing is, in assuming that the mods didn't do something that they actually did, you are actually assuming the worst of every single person who complained.

Also, I think the first mod post is still up: the one where they insulted Witchqueen and claimed she was defaming them and said that they weren't going to change the prompt. So even if we want to go with the argument that they didn't understand the history of the word and they didn't realize what was so offensive in equating bestiality to interracial sex, the point is that they were made aware of this, and their first instinct was to get angry and go on the attack. That doesn't speak well for them, either.

I was demurring specifically in reply to your "it's with any kind of logic that equates goat-fucking with romantic Dean/Luna", not commenting on the general issue. I should have quoted the comment to make that clear, sorry. By 'misunderstanding' I meant that the Harry/goat fic (art?) writer misunderstood what the prompt meant, and by 'not paying attention' I meant that the mods overlooked it. By 'smoking gun' I basically meant a post by them in which they actually stated that they had no problem with the goat fic being tagged that way (the only posts I could find from mods denied that they'd approved that).

I just re-read the posts with the exchange of emails, and although yes,

witchqueen argued that they were making that equation, they've never admitted to doing so, indeed have objected to it. You could counter-argue that the equation is implied in what else they've defended, I guess, although as I've said, I don't really think it is.

On the whole, after the re-read, my original impression of that first exchange stands.

witchqueen started with a didactic first email, and when the mods stonewalled with a "it's not our policy to change things because we know a lot of our random prompts are dubious" form letter, followed it with a second one that declared that she was going to denounce them in public and write to all posters to warn them expect to come under fire, without ever actually quoting any source other than herself to them in either email as backup for her assertions. The mods then replied with an 'open letter' that made some reasonable points but also contained much doth-protest-too-much foolishness and stupid claims of libel and defamation. Neither party look especially reasonable or sensible in this sequence, but at least in more recent posts they've calmed down and addressed the actual issues with some context.

So basically you're saying that mods have no responsibility for what gets posted in their community? I mean, the smoking gun is right in front of you, but you keep finding ways to weasel out of it. Are you going to tell me now that the person who wrote Crouch/elf also misunderstood a prompt which said specifically sex with another race or species, and/or that the mods didn't catch that one, either?

they've never admitted to doing so, indeed have objected to it.

Dude. Come on. They're not admitting to something that they did, and that anyone can see that they did. You saw how the prompt was worded, and you saw the fics that came out of it, and you saw that the mods did not correct or censure any of these fics.

It seems that you are bending over backwards to give one group of people the benefit of the doubt and write off everyone else. So I don't see the purpose in continuing this conversation. If you want, I can still hunt down the tags and definition of "miscegnation" on the original Daily Deviant pages, but since you dismiss everything that doesn't measure up to your own spurious definition of proof, I don't see why I should bother.

Re: smoking gun

snorkackcatcher - 2007-08-03 20:22 (UTC) - Expand

Re: smoking gun

snorkackcatcher - 2007-08-04 10:06 (UTC) - Expand

Re: smoking gun

spare-change.livejournal.com - 2007-08-04 15:12 (UTC) - Expand

Also, I will have to go back and look through Google Desktop (which archives the webpages I look at), but when people originally wrote for the "miscegnation" theme, they included the definition "Sex with another race or species," or something of similar wording If you want, I will take a half an hour and hunt down that page and make a screencap. Or you could take my word for it, as well as the word of every other person who protested it.

Other side as in there are two sides to this argument, you're emphatically on one, I'm mildly strong on the other. An argument which once, before everybody started slinging generalisations, was not about people of colour or animals or you, but about a HP-world fic prompt.

Safety in fandom... well, I find it hard to imagine anyone's safety threatened by an obscure tag with dodgy connotations in a very non-mainstream comm. Which, I'm perfectly certain, a lot of the vocal people encountered for the first time during this very wank. I still think it's ridiculously out of proportion even though I absolutely respect your right to see it differently.

I'll try to explain it with a very personal example: I know there is out there (in fandom) a very rare 'kink' that's (don't even know the name for it) Nazi-getup sex fic. Which, in my personal way of looking at the world, is as offensive as fic can get - *way* closer to home than racism based on colour (different part of the world here). We're not talking tags, but fic. I've never looked at it, never will, and whenever I see it mentioned (in an archive I have to sit on my hands not to yell how offensive, disgusting, historically *outrageous* it is. It seriously pisses me off. But... it's fic. Whoever writes/reads it might be ignorant, headblind jerks, but it's not there to hurt, or offend me. It's not *about* me. Give me a neo-nazi demonstration in the vicinity in real life and I'll be on the streets in protest with bells on. Show me someone who's crossing my online path arguing in favour of fascism or racism for real, and all my ideals of fairness and respect go out of the window. Yes, I have my touchy issues too. But seeing people getting as worked up over the fictional and not-offensively-meant... that I can't understand. More so, it feels like effort that could be much better used to deal with real life or at least purposeful offenses (and there's that on LJ!).

the Cassie Claire plagiarism scandal is particularly ironic, given that Cassie and her friends used the power of "mob mentality" for years to scream down anyone who pointed out the obvious fact of her plagiarism.

Exactly. That's what makes it even more infuriating if the 'side' I agree with behaves just as badly.

What I'm saying is, I did read your objections, and I found them, well, objectionable. Extremely so.

I'm honestly sorry - but there's nothing I can do about it. You see, my problem with your arguments and with all of the links you gave me (in fact, with Witchqueen's approach as such), is that it's intellectual suicide. It's not about 'education' (which should mean being trained to *think*), it's about being told what's right and wrong without being permitted an individual thought (which, all in itself, could already offend). It's about you being right, and everybody who won't fully and unquestioningly agree being evil. It's not about arguments or treating people fairly, it's only about surrender. It's asking that I hand my mind over to you to have it made up for me. And while I'm very sorry to offend you, or anyone, I won't do that. In fact, it scares me.

I'm not acting in bad faith because I fail to agree with you. I'm just trying to be honest with you and myself. Granted, you may not see it that way, but I'd be honoured if you'd at least think about it. And thank you, because without you pushing me, I'd not have figured out half of where my unconscious problems with this whole matter were coming from.

Briefly ...

Safety in fandom: you're the one who first used this phrase, not me. So now to mock it as "ridiculously out of proportion" is disingenuous at best.

Nazi kink: You're missing the point here. I don't care if people make interracial sex a kink. I don't care if people have Nazi kinks. What I care about is people classifying two very different kinks under the umbrella term. (An umbrella term which in itself is extremely offensive.) You can say that homosexuality is a kink, and that chan is a kink. But if you say they are the same kink, you are going to have a lot of people very angry with you. And that's what happened with Daily Deviant: you can't say that bestiality and interracial sex are the same thing.

I find the rest of your argument rather scary. What you are saying is basically that you will not listen to anyone who tries to talk to you about racism and you refuse to take the opinions of people of color seriously, because that for you would be intellectual suicide and surrendering your autonomy. Just ... wow. Sheer obstinacy for the sake of it. I find that childish in the extreme.

You know, I've been wrong about plenty of things in my life (including fandom), and I've had that pointed out to me in both very gentle and very harsh ways, but I always tried to learn from it. You are saying that you refuse to learn (and not just from me, but from the many people who have written intelligently and thoughtfully on this matter), and yet you are defending this as a form of intellectual independence. Good luck with that. I'm done here.

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Fandom and the Mob: a Rant

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Totally and Miserably OT

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smoking gun

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