kennahijja | What a Fucking Shower of Bloody Tossers!

Current Mood: just plain furious

What a Fucking Shower of Bloody Tossers!

Well, yes, you all heard it, LJ has done it again. This time going after fanartists for no obvious reason, again targetting

pornish_pixies. Again, the same old deletion-without-warning they *promised* would never happen again, again on the sly, this time very obviously targetting fandom (which they *also* once promised they wouldn't do again...). Damn. If I were more jaded, I wouldn't be so disappointed now. Should've listened to the warning voices, and to

fluffyllama and

trobadora at Sectus, who saw something like this coming!

I'm a patient woman, but this time, enough is enough. I cancelled my permanent account and told LJ they won't make money off me again, and unlike this entire crap reverses to a pre-persecution position (not that I'm counting it, with advertise dollars at stake), I stand by it.

If you want to let LJ know that they suck, there's

news

Some excellent links on backing up LJs and Comms by

elke_tanzer (is there a step-by-step how to for the clueless?).

And a *very* intriguing and timely development towards the creation of a fan-owned site already at the beta testing stage by

twocorpses. Which will hopefully happily merge with initiatives discussed by

atrata and ponderosa121. Just the hope for this makes is a little shiny beacon in a sea of fail.

As during the last crisis, the moment, I'm still over at GJ, also as kennahijja. Am trying to keep up with friendings and hunting down LJ friends, but bear with me - I've no regular net access. For all discussion of this, with polls and info and more to come,

atrata created

fandom_flies.

While I'd like to stay and fight on the one hand, I also see the temptation that is moving to a different site - if 'fandom' can decide on one where we're all together again, that is. If the majority of friends leave, I'll go wherever they go ;).

Honestly, this week has left me in turns tired, disappointed, bitter and now almost too exhausted to feel the fury this deserves. Off home now. Back to the LJ disaster zone tomorrow night ;(.

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Use lj-sec to move your posts it is the simplest. it does not move the comments, though. None of the programs, move the commnets.

Lj-archive is great to make a hard copy and does the comments too. Makes a searchable pdf copy which could be printed out and bound.

You can use semagic and post the same content to multiple journals.

I am tinnidawg at greatest journal, insane journal and journalspace (can't use these programs to shift to journal space though).

Thanks! I'll have to read my way through both again (tried so last night, not helped by being tired, headachy and choking with fury). Wish I wasn't so clueless about the technical end of things :(.

Hope you're not doing too bad, love - you're definitely one of the people who *don't* need this! *hugs*

Hey I am on Messenger right now, if you have the time I could start you off with moving the posts.

Really, the community aspect of Fandom is all that's saving us right now. Because the secret suspensions don't stay secret because we all talk to each other and find out about them. Well done fandom, is all that I can say to this fact. I feel the need for a rebellion icon. The Twins will have to do.

Yep - of course going after ponderosa was the equivalent of hurling a flaming torch while wanting to drown the matches... I'm glad I hung onto my rebellion icons after last time ;).

Sorry sweety!! But did you really think they were going to let you (as in the community) get away with that??? LOL Sorry I had to laugh -- they were just looking into a different way to get rid of that stuff. This time with all the legal documents and prove -- it is a battle you won't be able to win. They just won't care -- they will lose way more than just a couple of dollars if they don't clamp down on this. So LJ has no choice and apparently neither have you.
The only way around this is a sign-in locked website for fan fiction with required registration and waivers to be signed (electronically) by all the participants. And even then they are laws that need to be followed....
Sorry, I hope this whole mess didn't get you to down :-(.

Well, my first problem is that the laws are totally unclear, and then, wrong to anyone with a shred of common sense. On which you don't remotely have to agree, of course :). Of course as you know, part of me *likes* a good fight - I tend to thrive on it, but right now, I would have other things to do indeed.

Yes, unfortunatley most laws in the US are not very clear and left open to interpretation by the judge or judicial system in general LOL. Just compare our Bundesgesetzbuch with the Consitution, well the first one is very specific about everything (and really big) -- the Constitution was written (as far as I remember out of my government class in college)as vaguely as possible. Interpretation to be left open to the courts. That's why it is always such a big deal on "who"(which party the president belongs too)suggests/appoints Sureme Court judges -- how that effects the power on the high court and how that does effect the interpretation of the laws. Okay, did I explain that in an understandable way??? ;-)
How is the other "thing" going??? Any news yet???

I've added you and thanks for nice informative post :)

Thanks :). For both.

While I'd like to stay and fight on the one hand, I also see the temptation that is moving to a different site - if 'fandom' can decide on one where we're all together again, that is. If the majority of friends leave, I'll go wherever they go

So will I, I guess, but I really don't think it'll do any good, because any complaints made to LJ will be made again elsewhere, and a fan-run site will not have the financial or legal resources to fight. The obvious next tactic for attacks on such a site if they ignored attacks would be to go after the hosting company to get them to pull the plug, which they would do. Unless 'fandom' is willing to up sticks and shuffle around trying to find someone to host them -- in the same furtive manner as, you know, a genuine paedophile site would -- this won't help much, and I doubt many people would be that inclined to do so as a campaign for the right to post chan porn. Especially as 6A can probably just shrug and be quite happy if a few thousand troublesome fans who occasionally read or post dodgy stuff decide to clear off elsewhere.

a fan-run site will not have the financial or legal resources to fight. The obvious next tactic for attacks on such a site if they ignored attacks would be to go after the hosting company to get them to pull the plug, which they would do.

That's a depressing thought.

But I get the impression that the pressure is mostly coming from fear of losing advertising revenue/reputation rather than fear of the law (and I get the impression from

twocorpses's post that fanart showing fictional underaged characters in sexual situations is not technically illegal even in the US). A fan-run site could be free of that, if enough people were prepared to contribute to the hosting fees.

I'm not sure it matters whether it's ultimately shown to be legal in court or not -- you'd certainly imagine it was enough to create a presumption for arrest, which is likely enough of a serious consequence to get sites shut down. Plus -- some, perhaps much, of the art, at least, probably is illegal?

you'd certainly imagine it was enough to create a presumption for arrest, which is likely enough of a serious consequence to get sites shut down

*nods*

But from an activists point of view, if you want to get a company to change its policies, it's a lot easier to prey on companies' financial fears than to invoke the law. I'm not saying you'd eliminate the risk - and anyhow if the 'anti' people are so determined they'd eventually go down the legal route anyhow - but I am saying that being in a position to resist commercial pressure puts one in a stronger position.

And at least a fan-friendly site should have a ToS that is fair to the users (as in not deleting one's entire journal without notice).

Plus -- some, perhaps much, of the art, at least, probably is illegal?

Yeah, from what I've read since my previous comment, that appears to be unequivocal - in the US, at least. No idea about other countries, but if I cared one way or the other about chanfic/art I'd be taking a good look round to see if there were more liberal places to host from. On reflection, it does seem rather silly to host a site with questionable sexual content in a country that's not exactly renowned for its lack of prudery.

I think ultimately, the best way of going about this is trying to fight this mode of thinking (ie. the point that writing about something does not equate doing something, which seems to be glaringly obvious in every other context) both in the real world and the virtual.

I still hope, somewhat, that having a fandom-run (or at least fandom-originating server, will be more inclined to deal with its writers/artists more fairly than a commercial like LJ is wont to be).

You know, on the whole this 'fandom server' idea is starting to worry me. Because a 'fandom server' that takes its stand on the point that any kind of content, however channy or porny, is just peachy -- is just going to cement, in anyone not part of the 'in crowd', the ideas that fandom = pervs and fanfic = characters having pervy sex. Genfic? Fluff fic? Bah, no-one writes it, or if they do it's just cover for the filth. In short, it sounds like a recipe for ghettoisation for everyone, not just the people who actually read and write this stuff, and could easily lead to fanfic returning to being even more of a minority, in the closet pursuit than it is now.

The point that 'writing about something does not equate doing something' is a good point -- or rather, it's a good theoretical point. I suspect it will have no resonance whatsoever with anyone outside the charmed circle. And honestly -- some of this stuff makes me wonder. If people write or draw chan, and declaredly do so to titillate -- in what way is this not child porn, at least by current legal definitions?

So maybe the answer is self-policing. Politely -- or rudely, if that's what it takes -- urge the people who write and draw the genuinely dodgy stuff to host it elsewhere, don't link to it from general-purpose comms, and make a stand in a more defensible position. (Because some of the stuff that gets recced in the daily newsletters -- well, not only does the idea of clicking on it, albeit just out of morbid curiosity, scare me, the idea of having a page that even links to it in my cache or recorded at my ISP scares me. I might personally be prepared to shrug off (say) a Regulus/Padfoot semi-crackfic with "oh for fuck's sake, they cannot be serious", but I doubt anyone who wasn't already Lost In Fandom and therefore inured to this sort of bizarreness would.)

I think what we had in LJ before this entire thing broke out *was* a fandom server, hosting everything from G-rated Gen to risque NC-17 slash. In my humble opinion, fandom encompasses both and everything in between. And one of the things I treasure about fandom is that it *has* this variety, and I'd hate to see someone criminalised for writing smut rather than (or along with) gen fluff - once upon a time, there was room for both, and there should be.

But this isn't only about the right to write 'dodgy' fiction, it's about precedent. Yes, the majority may shrug off the extreme few with 'no great loss', what we see here is LJ disallowing whatever they please without clear guidelines - what's going to stop them from including all smut as 'obscene' or bowing to economic pressure from copyright holders against fanfic per se (which is *also* a semi-illegal thing)? Frankly, right now, I won't trust their word on 'anything' again.

I strongly believe that 'writing about something is not doing it' isn't theoretical, but the most obvious and basic thing. And just about *every* person with basic intelligence sees the difference, in practically *every* case apart from sex. And even there - I could list off-hand a dozen published works with explicit sexual content involving minors (and I'm not seeking those out in my RL reading) - so why is it targetted in fandom, when there's nothing happening but *writing*?

The difference between child pornography and chan? The former means harm to real children (and is one of the most disgusting crimes that can happen, as bad as torture and murder). The latter is fictional writing/drawing of fictional characters without harm done to anyone. And while I can't speak for everyone when it comes to tillitation, it does nothing in terms of 'kink' for me personally. I do reserve the right to write it, however, if the *characters* and the *plot* demand underage-ness - basically, if I couldn't tell the story without it turning into chan (as in writing certain HP pairings in a canonical context).

As an aside, I find the extreme paranoia-turned-into-hysteria over chan rather ironic, considering how strongly we are culturally conditioned towards those very patterns. Just look at romance conventions, or the double standard of 'male experience' and 'female purity'. Weird how comfortable most people are with it as a conservative pattern, but if ~~women~~we turn around and start playing with/interrogating said conventions - *bang*, instant demonisation. On second thought, it's not ironic, it's plain hypocrisy.

Very much 'thinking aloud' below, so it may not make a lot of sense ...

what's going to stop them from including all smut as 'obscene' or bowing to economic pressure from copyright holders against fanfic per se (which is *also* a semi-illegal thing)?

Absolutely nothing. There never was anything to stop them, just that fanfic and fanart was under the radar. I never did trust their word that much. It might be possible to argue them into a more tolerant position, but I wouldn't risk money on that. And as a long-term strategy, I don't think 'all or nothing' is viable. It's a good tactic to start with, to defend as high up the pitch as possible, but there's always going to be stuff that fandom is better off without. And yes, that's judgemental.

I strongly believe that 'writing about something is not doing it' isn't theoretical, but the most obvious and basic thing. And just about *every* person with basic intelligence sees the difference, in practically *every* case apart from sex.

Difference? Yes. Absolute? No. I think if we're ever going to mount any kind of effective defence, we have to take account of the fact that writing abut something often draws on personal experience and desires. Indeed, that's a basic piece of advice for beginning writers. With writing or art about sex, or more particularly porn -- which is after all written for the specific purpose of titillation, and generally has no particular storyline or purpose otherwise, nor (if we're being honest) generally much literary or artistic quality -- the border between 'clearly just artistic experimentation' and 'stuff to get off to', between exploration and something that reveals the author's id, is a lot narrower than for most other subjects.

If you met someone outside of fandom who openly declared that they got off on (say) writing about kids being abused, I imagine you'd think they were a potentially dangerous creep until proven otherwise. And you'd have an awkward judgement call about whether to let them carry on reinforcing that attitude with more of the same, or try to break it up, in case they went beyond that and caused genuine harm. It's not a cut-and-dried issue, and a theoretical defence would have to be focused heavily on the people who are genuinely artistically experimenting, and it would be hard to keep the focus there.

(continued below)

(continued)

And while I can't speak for everyone when it comes to tillitation, it does nothing in terms of 'kink' for me personally.

Nor me, but we're not the relevant part of the audience.

I do reserve the right to write it, however, if the *characters* and the *plot* demand underage-ness - basically, if I couldn't tell the story without it turning into chan (as in writing certain HP pairings in a canonical context).

As an aside, I find the extreme paranoia-turned-into-hysteria over chan rather ironic, considering how strongly we are culturally conditioned towards those very patterns. Just look at romance conventions, or the double standard of 'male experience' and 'female purity'. Weird how comfortable most people are with it as a conservative pattern, but if ~~women~~we turn around and start playing with/interrogating said conventions - *bang*, instant demonisation. On second thought, it's not ironic, it's plain hypocrisy.

I didn't quite get this -- do you really think people are happy with this if it's het rather than slash? Or did you mean something else entirely? I actually think this is one of the areas where women have far greater freedom of action, as there's far less chance of them being assumed to be genuine pervs (no, I'm not trying to whine, honest, just pointing out the situation). For me, a plotbunny that seemed to be headed towards chan would be something I'd treat like an unexploded bomb -- it could blow up in my face and cause me real, no-shit damage at any moment, run away, run away!

For the record, the only actual one I thought of was a plot which had Slughorn fancying the NEWT students, notably and among others Lily and Hermione, and part of his reason for giving Harry the memory was an attempt at penance. It came from reading that line 'why would Slughorn want to kill Ron?' and because my brain has been warped by fandom, a shippy answer occurred as a joke -- he wanted Hermione, so gave Ron poison! Having had the original idea, I sort of mentally blocked out how it might go, as you do, incorporating various bits of Slughorn canon and giving opportunities for an arty finish -- and then came to a screeching halt when it dawned on me that I would have to write it from the POV of a basically creepy Slughorn and try to make him somewhat sympathetic. Um, no. I don't especially want to delve into that, and would prefer not to have people think of me as a sick bastard. Because they would -- hell, I would if it were someone else (male) and I didn't know them. Hypocrisy? Possibly, but you see what I mean?

Very much 'thinking aloud' below, so it may not make a lot of sense ...
Me too - I tend to use you as a sounding board because you're rational and make me think, but no need to put up with it, ok?

All or nothing - granted, it's tactics, but I'm not willing to start with less :). My problem isn't so much that I don't think they can/should decide that x, y and z will be unacceptable on LJ. That's their right, whether I may think that x, y or z is too personally restrictive for me to stay and obey. My huge problem is that there is no clarity whatsoever on what goes and what doesn't, that nobody can anticipate what will get them in trouble and what won't, and that this very ambiguity is used as a blanket tool of intimidation.

there's always going to be stuff that fandom is better off without. And yes, that's judgemental.
Only perhaps very, very few things which I'm glad I'll never be called on defining. And that's equally judgemental :).

writing abut something often draws on personal experience and desires
I very strongly dunno... if that were the case, I'd be very seriously worrying about myself (i.e. I can't speak for anyone, but it's definitely not true for me). I write porn because it's the most challenging genre I've encountered so far, and because it allows me to dig into issues that preoccupy me from a different angle. I may *read* the rare story that isn't just 'intellectually hot' but downright arousing, but rarely, and when it comes to writing? All work and no fun :(.

porn -- which is after all written for the specific purpose of titillation, and generally has no particular storyline or purpose otherwise, nor (if we're being honest) generally much literary or artistic quality
I think the only reason why we're conditioned to consider porn (written porn , I have lots of trouble when it turns visual) as something lacking artistic and literary merit is because we're conditioned to see sex as something scary and wrong. Otherwise, it would be a perfectly valid genre (and I won't go off into my usual tangent on the benefit of reclaiming pornography for the female voice and experience...).

As for how to explain anything to fandom outsiders - why should we? Explaining fan activity as such is already beyond a lot of people. Those who are interested will join, those who are not should concern themselves with the things *they* find interesting ;).

I didn't quite get this -- do you really think people are happy with this if it's het rather than slash? Or did you mean something else entirely?
Something else entirely, sorry. I think that chan-as-mentality is quite alive even in mainstream conventional culture - not explicity (although if you look at historical novels or fantasy, it often is) but present in attitudes and expectations of both men and women (using het rolemodelling because het is what dominates culture).

Granted, I'm a bit more careful about keeping my online and real life identities apart, but... I see your plot bunny, I see why it might be interesting, and I can't see for the life of my why anyone would jump from 'somebody who's writing about dodgy characters/morality' to 'someone *being* a dodgy character' - um... as much as I love Shakespeare's Richard II and Titus Andronicus and lots of the bloody Henry plays, it never occurred to me to equate what he wrote with his person? Not saying that themes and character traits may not at times overlap (take Marlowe and Edward II), but this is an argument I find rather absurd. Seriously, I'd have about as much respect for someone judging somebody by the stories they write as I'd have for someone judging another by appearance without bothering to communicate. In one word, none.

Thanks for the excellent batch of links.

I feel this is the closest I've come to a 'First they came for the Communists' situation - if it weren't for the wankery I doubt I'd notice if all the chan disappeared from LJ overnight. But if a) LJ is getting less friendly/secure and b) LJ is offending my friends, I'll join the Quest for A Better Place.

I'm not going to bother with GJ yet, though - one journal is enough for me, until I know which way people are jumping.

I'll watch Scribblit with interest.

At least, after your disgust with the worst aspects of fandom/LJdom, the reaction to this goes some way to reaffirming the more positive aspects of the 'community'.

Yes, Scribblit sounds very intriguing. It's the sort of atmosphere this creates that infuriates me - everybody worrying 'will that be risky' or 'who will be next', or 'omg, am I evil'...

Query: Who drew your delete us? icon?

Me :). Well, I stole the logo, obviously, but the rest was me. Last time 'round :(.

Have friended your GJ.

Am too headspinny to comment on anything else.

Friended back :).

Where am I supposed to be flocking when part of my f-list migrates to GJ, and part to IJ, and some elsewhere, and most of them probably not going anywhere? I hate to have multiple different places to keep track of. I think I'll stay here. ;-)

I hope in the end, there will be a clear decision - my main problem with IJ is that the flist cuts off at 100 unless you get a paid account, and I'm not going to take *that* risk again any time soon. So unless there's a mass exodus decision, I'll keep to LJ, and look into backing up my LJ on GJ for safety's sake - if I ever get to grips with the mechanics ;(.

It's just... can't find words, really. When I heard of LJ's latest actions, it felt like some sort of medieval witchhunt. "They're at it *again*?!"
Why, for Christ's sake, are they suddenly (after all these years) developing a conscience? (Yes, yes, know the answer)

Will stay on LJ for as long as I can (being stubborn, really) but will move fics to GJ.

Yeah, the answer is pretty glaring. So will I, for now, hoping that the Scribblit thing will take off and work. *prays*

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