mainly HBP musings - the potion in the cave

[kennahijja]

Ah, Christmas is over! Hope you all had a good and not too stressful time! Ours was nice, relaxed and enjoyable, and I spent an hour on the phone to my best friend in the US on the 25th (after 1am, but... shudders at thought of phone bill). Still, it left me lots of time with fanfic in front of the computer, and curled up with HBP in bed. Which means a substantial fic rec post should be forthcoming tonight :).

But while re-reading HBP (and after mulling over Horcrux traps for the recent fic), something occurred to me about the potion Harry and Dumbledore encounter in the Cave in HBP...

In HBP, the Horcrux is at the bottom of the basin, and Dumbledore concludes:

"But how to reach it? This potion cannot be penetrated by hand, Vanished, parted, scooped up, or siphoned away, nor can it be Transfigured, Charmed, or otherwise made to change its nature." Almost absentmindedly, Dumbledore raised his wand again, twirled it once in midair, and then caught the crystal goblet that he had conjured out of nowhere. "I can only conclude that this potion is supposed to be drunk."
"What?" said Harry. "No!"
"Yes, I think so: Only by drinking it can I empty the basin and see what lies in its depths."

And then:

Before Harry could make any further protest, Dumbledore lowered the crystal goblet into the potion. For a split second, Harry hoped that he would not be able to touch the potion with the goblet, but the crystal sank into the surface as nothing else had; when the glass was full to the brim, Dumbledore lifted it to his mouth. "Your good health, Harry."

So... if the potion can be scooped out by goblet, why does Dumbledore *drink* the stuff? Why not empty the goblet on the floor or something? I'm sure this has been discussed by someone before, but I just wonder... Anyone encountered any theories?

Comments

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

I suppose that falls under siphoned away but there must be some other way of doing it... *ponders*

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

You're right, actually my problem is twofold: why he can scoop out the potion in a goblet at all, and then *if* he can, why he does drink it... I would assume the potion has some magical qualities that might be accessible upon the 'intent' to drink, but that would make it not only psychic, but also semi-sentinent, wouldn't it? (not to mention that making it *totally* inaccessible would protect the Horcrux...)

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Well it's partly a Plot Device of Doom but we don't know much about Morcruxes (Horcruxi), so you could fudge it a bit and make it so that part of the spell is that it has to be accessible in some way in case you want your soul back. You could make it as difficult as you like to gain access but there has to be some way of gaining access.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

That's an excellent point! And for someone like Voldemort, it would be dead easy to bring along a captured enemy (or fanatic devotee) to take care of the drinking. I'm still curious why Dumbledore did not even try to pour out the stuff to see if it was possible... (or perhaps - as always - he knew more about it than he let on...)

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

He probably knows more than he let on to Harry and knew that it couldn't be just poured away. Then any sort of sea life swimming along could accidently knock the bowl over and the point of actually hiding your soul away would be completely lost.

The diary in CoS was a Horucrux and when Ginny tried to flush it down the loo, it wouldn't go, so it's probably the same sort of idea.

[moltensulfur.livejournal.com]

The diary in CoS was a Horucrux and when Ginny tried to flush it down the loo, it wouldn't go, so it's probably the same sort of idea.

This just made me laugh and has nothing to do with the overall conversation. I just had to ask if you've ever tried to flush a diary down the toilet? Horcrux or not, I think it would be very difficult. Keys no, diary, yes.

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Magic toilet? :) It's the catcall argument when you realised you've made a bit of an idoit of yourself.

[siamkatze.livejournal.com]

> I'm still curious why Dumbledore did not even try to pour out the stuff to see if it was possible... (or perhaps - as always - he knew more about it than he let on...)

I'm still convinced that the potion itself is the Horcrux. DD knew this, that's why he insisted on drinking it (and ALL of it), and later making sure he got himself killed (and so effectively destroying that Horcrux).

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting theory! Although then I wonder what exactly RAB carried off and was so smug about... Still, it would be a brilliant double-cross on Voldemort's part - I like it (just as I've always loved the theory that the 'Chosen One' is really Neville, and Dumbledore just played up Harry as a decoy...).

[siamkatze.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I like that one as well! One of my favorite theories. I doubt JKR would take away the glory from Harry, though. Too bad.

Here is my blog post where I wrote about the Horcrux theory, but it's pretty much the same as I just wrote here. RAB of course didn't know the potion was the Horcrux - he thought it was the locket, when the locket was actually the decoy in this case.

[chthonya]

I would assume the potion has some magical qualities that might be accessible upon the 'intent' to drink

That's what I would have thought. It wouldn't have to be sentient though - perhaps if it's poured onto the ground it reappears in the basin, and only by passing through the body is it kept 'out'.

No idea why he didn't make it completely inaccessible, though! As MaM says, perhaps we have to assume that some accessibility is part of the magic.

And now I'm wondering how RAB got there, if two people were needed...

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

And now I'm wondering how RAB got there, if two people were needed...
Oh, oh, I wanted to rec this tonight, but if you have five minutes, *don't* pass this up. Because it just answers your question :).

[chthonya]

Thanks for the link - awesome writing of the sort that makes me feel v inadequate!

I'm still not sure how both of them got across the lake, though. Unless RAB was underaged at the time? I haven't figured through the timelines.

[mieronna.livejournal.com]

*drops in*

But calling to the U.S. isn't more expensive than the usual long-distance call if you use call-by-call numbers, is it?

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Heh, I'm totally ignorant about such details (the quintessential Festnetztelefonierer...). And since I don't do it too often (bless email!) and usually late, I'd rather pay a bit more once in a while than spend time on finding out about tarifs ;).

[mieronna.livejournal.com]

:D I was, too - until we moved and I started talking to lots of people that live far away for a long time. It really comes cheaper. http://www.billiger-telefonieren.de is the address in such cases - easy to navigate and really fast. Or, if you're calling in Germany, page 555 of Pro7 tele-text.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That's dead useful!
*huggles*

[rfachir.livejournal.com]

It would have been more effective if he had to "rub his nose in it" or kiss it or somehow abase himself before the font, so that all Harry could do was help raise Dumbledore up to take another drink for himself. I like that image, and I especially like that in the end there is no reward for the effort but Death. Especially if RAB is someone Dumbledore knew (or should have known if he payed more attention). Since it's a poison, I'm shelving my Snape/Lily theory for Snape/Regulus. It makes more sense - Blacks are just as beautiful and arrogant as Lily could ever be, and Snape could have tried to save Regulus from the potion the first time, thus making Dumbledore believe he could save the Headmaster this last time.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Snape/Regulus is a really good one! Very much in the direction of the fic I recced to chthonya above... And yes, it would fit both Snape and Dumbledore perfectly. Though I have to admit I liked the scene where Harry forces Dumbledore to drink - both because Harry's anguish is so very vivid (I did not think he would have it in himself, to be honest) and because it lets us see Dumbledore so weak that it's almost traumatising. Like a very sinister bit of foreshadowing...

[captainjames.livejournal.com]

You just gave me this funny image of Dumbledore emptying the goblet on the floor and the potion jumping back into the basin and refusing to let him scoop it up again =D.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

*grin*
"AND NOW, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, A BIG APPLAUSE FOR OUR VERY OWN ALBUS DUMBLEDORE AND HIS AMAZING JUMPING KILLER POTION!"

[fourth_rose]

So... if the potion can be scooped out by goblet, why does Dumbledore *drink* the stuff?

For the same reason Harry said "Accio Firebolt" when he could have said "Accio golden egg" in Gof? ;-)

(Sorry, I have nothing substantial to contribute...)

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

*giggles madly*
Of course, *that* trick might have left him with his arms full of golden egg and Hungarian Horntail mum hanging on determinedly :). (... just like Moody could have said, "Could you please hold *this*-" waves random object- "for me for a sec, Mr Potter?" at any point...).

[fourth_rose]

... just like Moody could have said, "Could you please hold *this*-" waves random object- "for me for a sec, Mr Potter?" at any point..

Thank you, that has been bothering me ever since I first read GoF!

I seriously love that book, but the plot's got more holes in it than your average Emmentaler cheese... ;-)

Must NOT write crack!fic about Harry accioing golden egg plus dragon...

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

That would be fun crackfic ;). And your icon is seriously great!

[fourth_rose]

Thanks :-)

copperbadge made it; big eyes come in handy quite often!

[chthonya]

Thank you, that has been bothering me ever since I first read GoF!

Likewise. Though it only occured to me on seeing the film that perhaps the Cup was always supposed to be a Portkey - to bring the winner back to the maze entrance and the cheers of the onlookers. I read a theory somewhere that only Headmaster-created/endorsed Portkeys would make it in or out of Hogwarts (if not, then why did Draco not use one to bring in the Death Eaters?), so that CrouchJnr only had to overlay Dumbledore's Portket spell with his own, to divert the Portkey from its proper destination. It also would explain why the Cup returned to Hogwarts when touched in the graveyard.

[snorkackcatcher]

Ah, thanks -- that theory does actually make sense, except that BCJ said he "turned" the Cup into a Portkey? (Although I suppose "endorsed" does work in that case.) It is one of the odd plot holes in the series. (Not as odd as the idea of giving 13-year-olds Time-Turners, but again there you can handwave and say that they can only be used in ways the Headmaster approves of.)

[leni-jess.livejournal.com]

apologies for repost; I hate messing up html codes

What I have a problem with - if RAB also drank the potion (the theory surely would be that no one's cleverer than Dumbledore, so if RAB had a better way of getting to the locket, my, Dumbledore's slipping, or JKR is being careless yet again) - then how come the locket's covered with potion again?

If Tom hasn't been back to check (and obviously he hasn't, or that taunting message would have been destroyed in a spectacular fit of pique), is there some spell on the bowl that causes the potion to renew itself/ bowl to refill, once the bowl's emptied?

Thinking around this issue makes my head hurt: your question, mine, and others. In the event, the Inferi weren't much of a threat either, were they? All you need is a boat and due care.

They're just there for the scary - like the information in chapter 1 that the mists were due to Dementors mating, which never came up again (naughty JKR), which I hope someone will run with some day. (Charting the incidence of Dementors in the British Isles by weather records back to Roman times? Heh, it wasn't a little ice age when the Thames froze over a couple of times in Elizabeth I's reign after all. And the greater warmth in Edwardian times - which has caused so many external water pipes on houses built then to crack from freezing up, many mid-century on winters since - is clearly due to some great wizard getting rid of them. Y'know, I like this theory. It might absolve Australia and the USA from getting on board with the Kyoto agreement.)

I need an icon for crack!meta, clearly.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

I always thought that RAB had also brought somebody with him... (an interesting theory - forgot who brought it up - pointed at Kreacher once). Which of course doesn't solve the where-does-the-potion-come-from problem. Unless it's self-refilling, but on a slower rate than it is scooped out?

Totally with you on the spectacular fit of pique :).

I *really* think you should write that Dementor theory up as fic - it's brilliant! :)

[leni-jess.livejournal.com]

I've thought Kreacher might have been his companion, too. You'd need one, if only because the person who drinks is going to go loopy long before he's done.

I enjoyed promulgating the Dementor theory, but I dunno about writing it up as fic – it's more the kind of thing sollersuk does when she writes these pseudo-scholarly bits of history of magic in early Britain. However, I will bear your encouragement in mind.

[ivy-chan.livejournal.com]

He should have brought multiple goblets, damn it!

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

*grin*
Considering he just summoned/conjured the one he had, that'd have been easy as pie ;).

[snorkackcatcher]

So... if the potion can be scooped out by goblet, why does Dumbledore *drink* the stuff? Why not empty the goblet on the floor or something?

Presumably it's part of whatever spells are on the stuff that it just teleports back to the basin if you try? Like when Harry tries to Conjure/charm up water afterwards it just disappears before it can be drunk, so he has to scoop it out of the lake and set the Inferi off?

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Yes - I assume it's something like this myself, and that there *is* a reason (it's actually rather easy to make one up), but as it stands in canon, it looks a bit... weird. At least if you squint at it hard enough :). Or if you read the book after two cups of mulled wine :).